Curse

Epinephrine · Jul 25, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

The efficiency of Shame and Guilt in terms of energy manipulation. Can someone explain it? It doesn't seem they're good at maintaining my energy levels at all. Shutting people out for 9 seconds doesn't sound bad but stealing 12 for 10 energy sounds horrid.

Well, I like them beause they are thus essentially free. If you they don't cast you have achieved a long shut down on only 10 energy; If they cast a spell you have countered a spell without needing to baby sit and cost them energy. If they only cast a 5 cost spell you have for example exchanged 17 of their energy, gaining 2 for yourself, for nothing (they don't even get a spell effect). An energy tap only steals 13 energy and costs 5, so you gain 8 - well, that's a very similar energy difference between the teams (21 energy difference vs 19 energy) but in addition to achieving a decent energy flux you have countered a spell. Worst case scenario they notice the guilt/shame, have a cheap (5 cost) spell that they can afford to have countered and quickly execute it, freeing themselves from the hex - even in this situaion you have come out about as well as an energy tap works in terms of energy denial, at a faster casting time, and probably cost them a bit of time choosing a spell and casting it, so unlike an energy tap where you spend 3.75 seconds and they spend no time, you spend 2.75 seconds and they spend probably about the same amount of time.

In a more common scenario they may have actually wanted that spell, may have spent more than 5 energy on it etc, may have cast a spell with a long recycle time and so on. As soon as they lose a decent spell, spend 10 energy on the spell or the like it is a better buy than an energy tap. If they do nothing it's cheaper and faster than a backfire, and it shut them down fine.

I'd rather use one on a caster than use a backfire -

1.) if it is removed (like a backfire would be) you have less energy/time invested.
2.) if they simply sit it out, you have less time/energy invested for about the same duration of suppression.
3.) if a player is good the backfire may catch them by surprise, hit them once for a bit of damage and they'll call for help, stopping casting, net result is a nice hit of damage (100+) and the time spent waiting for a removal/energy involved removing it. If a player is caught by a shame/guilt it ends, steals 12 energy and stops the spell. If the spell was a heal it likely was of a similar size to a backfire's damage; if it was an attack it may well have been similar in magnitude to a backfire's damage. A healer converts energy to healing at let's say 20 damge/energy, and a nukerr delivers at about half that; 10 per energy. Either way the hex will have stopped a spell, doing as much damage/heal interruption as a backfire might have, and by draining another 12 energy has essentially stopped 120 damage or 240 healing - that's a big blow to the enemy team. I'd much rather stop a 100 point heal and deny the energy for 240 more points of healing than deal 140 damage once.
4.) While you could keep casting through a backfire, only really lousy players will do this. I don't think picking a spell based on the fact that it kills lousy players is a good reason.

Kali Ma · Jul 26, 2005, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Here's a point regarding Mesmers that I'd like to add to the discussion, and is imho partially why so many players have a hard time picking up the profession and sticking with it... Mesmers aren't simply linear damage dealers or spellcasters. Many of their spells deal with the intangibles of gameplay.

All of the other professions do an action for a tangible result - cast spell, see effect; swing weapon, see damage; lay trap, see effect. They may combine two or more skills together to complement each other, but it's still usually (not always) a linear attack or buff with a specific effect in mind.

With Mesmers, it's not necessarily that way... many of their spells and combos have more intangible results than are apparent on the surface, and are designed to be that way. They can impact the mental game, get under a player's skin, drain energy vicariously by stealing focus away from other areas, etc. Mesmers are about misdirections, distractions, diversions, feints, drains, denials - and just like with a magician or a hypnotist, your attention can be purposefully misguided to somewhere other than where the magician is attending... and if done well you won't even know it.

To not acknowledge or recognize this fundamental aspect of the profession is to underestimate the Mesmer's potential. This is important to recognize whether one builds an Interrupter, Hex Breaker, Energy Drainer, Health Drainer, Condition Spreader or hybrid of them all in some form.

Bazooka · Jul 26, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Hex casting mesmers can most definately make 2 targets ineffectual but now that Nature's Renewal has become popular, energy denial will be the way to go for a bit.
Amazingly, Domination can do both although there are some that insist that Inspiration is the be all and end all for energy denial

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 27, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Inspiration has to be the be all and end all of energy denial skills.

If you want utter maximum energy draining capability:

energy tap
arcane echo
Energy Drain x2
Ether Feast

[not ether lord since u'll just waste all the energy you stole. that and it sux]

This will reduce even the highest E. Storage Elementalist to sub par combat status in under 4s. with 11 fast casting in the stats.

The energy Drains are casted so fast it looks like it's only one but it's actually 2 back to back.

No other class can come close to this form of energy denial, by far.

rii · Jul 27, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Yes, but the task of the mesmer is usually to shut down multiple opponents. Energy Draining is good at high inspiration and high fast casting, so thats not a lot of room left over for other stuff. The combo listed above takes half your skill bar and without ether lord, well done, youve taken out one person, who (if competent) will have some sort of energy management themselves and will soon be back in the fight (albeit slowed down somewhat). A domination could take out three in that time.
I like energy denial, but you concentrate all your efforts on taking one guy out, at the loss to your team of yourself more often than not. That my man is a 1 for 1 tradeoff and goes against the mentality of the mesmer.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 27, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

The energy drained is used to shut down other enemies. That's not the only 4 skills in the skill bar.

nostra · Jul 28, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

...get good at spotting the casting animations.

... If you can spot casts by animation you can interrupt multiple characters. You just need cat-like reflexes.

with the popularity of spiking teams (especially air ele) lately I suggest looking into cry of frustration. ... Nail one of those air eles with spike and you just interrupted 3-4 chain lightnings and saves your team and easy 600 damage. Chain is 1s so you have to be quick, but it can be done.

For practice take a few friends and hunt hydras in PvE, work on interrupting as many at once as you can. I found this trains you to look for casting animations and helps improve reaction.

Hi, your post puzzles me in several ways:

1) You say you can interrupt better by watching casting animations, which I guess you're right to say, but how do you do that? I find it hard to spot my target in a busy 8 v 8 pvp, especially since I need to switch targets quite often? Any tip on that?

2) Also, how much time exactly are you saving? do you know how "delayed" the appearing of the casting icone by the name of the player is?

3) According to my memory (and data base), chain-lighting is not a 1 sec casting time spell but a 3 sec casting time spell, which would explain that it is easily interruptible...

Can you really interrupt 1 sec casting time spells? If yes, how?

4) I would be particularly surprised if you could interrupt 1 sec casting time spells with cry of frustration, because it's a 3/4 sec casting time spell... in order to do that, you would need to have genetically-modified-cat's reflexes, no?

nostra

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 28, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

The key to interrupting the 1s. spells [and oddly enough, the 3/4s. spells too] you just need to guesstimate when the enemy will use them.

My new W/N Death Magic user uses Virulence and I'm ALWAYS ready to just hit Disrupting Chop afterward because whenever anyone with condition removal tries to use it, they WILL use it on themselves pretty much immediately after seeing 4 conditions pop up on their display...

It's all about timing. Ever see a Leech signet get Disrupting Chopped? I did...

ack*

Tellani Artini · Jul 28, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Practice makes perfect. Keep working on interrupts until you can knock out orison consistently with distracting blow, power spike, etc.

I think it's very important to try and keep your eyes on the battlefield instead of the enemy's health bar or your party list, no matter what class you play. It helps you recognize who's chasing who, who's healing, who's resurrecting, and that kind of thing. Positioning is a big part of the game, after all. If you never look at the fight, you might find yourself in the middle of a chaos storm without realizing it (chaos storm is nearly silent and difficult to hear in a pitched battle), or set yourself up to be AoE'd to death, or leave yourself wide open to a multi-ranger quick shot spike when you should be hiding behind something.

nostra · Jul 29, 2005, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Thanks for your replies guys.

@ Yukito:

I understand your point about guesstimating when a target might want to remove conditions, but do you mean you will then be super careful in order to be able to interrupt as fast as possible, or do you mean that you will then just take a chance and launch your interrupt, hoping there will be something to interrupt?

You're speaking of disrupting chop which has zero casting time, used to interrupt a leech signet (0.25 sec casting time)... I think that the human brains cannot perceive an action (leech signet being cast), and decide to interrupt with disrupting chop, then send information to your finger to press on the corresponding key, and this action be performed, all this in less than 0.25. I might be wrong, but this sounds surprising to me... So how is it possible? Just reacting quicker than I think is possible or rather kind of luck (you decided to press the key and it occured at the right time to interrupt a spell you had guesstimated would be cast at that time?).

@ Tellani

Good advice, thanks. If I understand you correctly, your point is that the 0.25 sec cast don't have a full casting animation and that the longer spells are possible to interrupt, so I should just watch the battlefield to see when my target shows casting animation, then interrupt?

nostra

Kali Ma · Jul 29, 2005, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

So how is it possible?

It's like with tennis... there's not enough time to get in position to hit the ball with a powerful stance if one waits until after their opponent hits it to move - but you don't know where they are going to hit it until after they do. So you have to anticipate and use your intution, combined with experience, to get in position before they hit it.

Many GW players get into certain combos they like, or they cast spells or do attacks in a certain pattern and order - we all do it to some degree. It's possible to recognize these kind of patterns when one has experience facing certain types of builds/players. At first it may seem like guesswork, and there will be times where you cast an interrupt at nothing... a lot. But that's just part of learning how to anticipate through experience, and over time those failed interrupts begin to happen less and less.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 29, 2005, 12:52 PM // 12:52

And 1 sec. spells you can really interrupt with ease - a Mesmer with at least some points in fast casting will cast those 0.25sec interrupts under 0.2 seconds. That's 0.8 seconds of time to react, something you should really be able to do with a little bit of training.

Mesmerized · Jul 29, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

and alot of players have a type of rhythm to them in their casting.. one of the main strategies with a disruption/interruption mesmer is to stay a step ahead of your opponent. i've practiced this pve for a while and got my reflexes down to pvp somewhat decently (but most of this is really luck), but if you notice a pattern, sometimes you can effectively cast cry of frustration/power spike for example even before the animation comes up.. its hard but sometimes you can just get a feel for it. pve its much easier, but it gives practice to pvp. it's a very good feeling when you interrupted a skill that they began in the .20 seconds it took to cast your interrupt.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 29, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostra

Thanks for your replies guys.

@ Yukito:

I understand your point about guesstimating when a target might want to remove conditions, but do you mean you will then be super careful in order to be able to interrupt as fast as possible, or do you mean that you will then just take a chance and launch your interrupt, hoping there will be something to interrupt?

You're speaking of disrupting chop which has zero casting time, used to interrupt a leech signet (0.25 sec casting time)... I think that the human brains cannot perceive an action (leech signet being cast), and decide to interrupt with disrupting chop, then send information to your finger to press on the corresponding key, and this action be performed, all this in less than 0.25. I might be wrong, but this sounds surprising to me... So how is it possible? Just reacting quicker than I think is possible or rather kind of luck (you decided to press the key and it occured at the right time to interrupt a spell you had guesstimated would be cast at that time?).

nostra

There's the swing rate to take into account at 1.33s. Yes I'm going to react to someone casting a .25s. spell/skill... [not!]

It's called foresight, a way to guess the future. Monks don't like being buried under conditions which eat away their hp like piranha. I WILL Skill Lock that condition cure. I don't have a choice in the matter. If I mess up, then hey, that monk was smart and staggered his spell casting. I too could just guess he'll use it a moment later and just stall my Disrupting Chop. I need to 'know' what the monk will do after a few minutes of combat.

One warrior described me as being a ninja when I dis. chopped both his Vigorous Spirt and his Healing Breeze in one round. People are people, they can be expected to do certain things.

Heck sometimes when I'm just curious, I cast disrupting chop on my target and AFTER I start swinging, a skill of some sort pops up. It happens...

You want to see a wild effect? Stay the hell away from a For Great Justice Frenzy Warrior with Disrupting Chop. A skill lock attempt every 3s. for 15s. means you can lose more than half your skill bar if you gamble on it.

edit*

Oh yeah, let's Echo {E} the disrupting chop. Let's do it every 2 swings for 15s. I'm pretty sure unless someone hexes/conditions you, you'll be more dangerous than a mesmer in terms of shutdown.

JoDiamonds · Jul 29, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostra

You're speaking of disrupting chop which has zero casting time, used to interrupt a leech signet (0.25 sec casting time)... I think that the human brains cannot perceive an action (leech signet being cast), and decide to interrupt with disrupting chop, then send information to your finger to press on the corresponding key, and this action be performed, all this in less than 0.25. I might be wrong, but this sounds surprising to me... So how is it possible? Just reacting quicker than I think is possible or rather kind of luck (you decided to press the key and it occured at the right time to interrupt a spell you had guesstimated would be cast at that time?).

There are some studies that have shown people reacting before the brain waves show they've even consciously registered the stimulus. I'm not sure this is particularly relevant, but some kind of subconscious savant might be able to react in time. ;-)

But otherwise, yes, you have to actually start interrupting before the skill is used by the enemy. You have to know they will use it now.

In longer battles, you can consciously or even subsciously start detecting patterns in the enemies usage. (When "intuition" tells you when to start disrupting, that's when you know your subconscious is smarter than you are.)

Tellani Artini · Jul 30, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

There are some studies that have shown people reacting before the brain waves show they've even consciously registered the stimulus. I'm not sure this is particularly relevant, but some kind of subconscious savant might be able to react in time. ;-)

But otherwise, yes, you have to actually start interrupting before the skill is used by the enemy. You have to know they will use it now.

In longer battles, you can consciously or even subsciously start detecting patterns in the enemies usage. (When "intuition" tells you when to start disrupting, that's when you know your subconscious is smarter than you are.)

Nothing quite like a distracting shot on an orison at max bow range. Those kinds of shots don't happen with interrupt spam. Choking gas is another story.. distracting shot is like a special forces raid, while choking gas is like carpet bombing a village.